What’s Really In The Mirror - Body Dysmorphia with Therapist Joe Eiben
Kylie:
Welcome back to Far From Perfect. Today's episode is pure fire. I literally could not get this up fast enough. I believe that everyone needs to listen to this episode with Joe Eiben. Joe is a licensed mental health counselor, professional coach and holistic nutritionist. He works with people all over the world dealing with their eating issues, body image issues, etc. This is another episode that is basically a therapy session that you may or may not know that you needed. In this episode, we talk about so many things. I initially wanted to have him on to talk strictly about body dysmorphia but, of course, body dysmorphia is just a presentable issue for things that are actually quite deeper than that.
Kylie:
Some of my favorite quotes from Joe are, number one, "Fat is not a feeling." Number two, "When we realize that it's so much easier for us to believe a lie than to believe we were lied to." Then finally, "The true essence of healing is to recognize that the way I choose to see myself will impact my life. The stories I believe about myself will impact my life." If you have ever been on a diet, if you have lost a significant amount of weight, if you struggle with body image, if you are a fitness professional, I honestly believe everyone needs to listen to this episode. I plan on having Joe on again and again because he truly is a gift, you guys. Please enjoy this podcast.
Kylie:
Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. I am so excited today. I know we always say this but for real, I am so excited today because I am talking with my good friend, Joe Eiben, who is a therapist. I am obsessed with therapists but specifically Joe. I make all my friends follow you on social media because...
Joe Eiben:
Oh, thank you.
Kylie:
... you post great content, you are vulnerable, you speak the truth and I just think we all need more Joe in our lives.
Kylie:
Tell us about the kind of therapy that you practice.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. I've been saying that I call myself an integrated therapist. I'm a big believer of acknowledging that we heal in the body, we heal in the mind and we heal in the soul, and being able to really bring those things together. I predominantly work with clients that have body issues. I work with the gamut of everything, but one thing that I do that's a little bit non-traditional... I'm a big believer of helping people realize that the work in the therapy office is just one piece of the puzzle. Sometimes with my clients that are struggling, let's say they're struggling with the shame with their body and going to a gym, for example, I'll meet them at SoulCycle and we will practice next to each other. I will be next to them basically doing therapy, encouraging them and saying, "Be proud of yourself that you're here, please don't look around at the other bodies, be connected to yourself. You're a badass."
Joe Eiben:
I mean, I took a client who believed that she was too heavy to even take a walk with me. I met her at a crossfit class one time because she said that was her dream. I said, "Well, why don't we do it together?" I said, "I'll just be your partner. I'll help you with it." I go and sometimes eat with clients and we'll go to a coffee shop and I'll say, "I know that you have deep shame around ordering a cookie. I'd like you to order a cookie and a beverage and I'm going to sit with you." The thing that I believe truly, and we're such a culture of top five reasons or this meme or read this article, every person's healing is different. For some of my clients, saying no to a cookie is profoundly healing. For some of my clients, giving them self permission to have an ice cream with their child can be transformative. Really respecting the individuality and also respecting the idea that everyone heals a little bit differently. It's not a one-size-fits-all. So I would say for sure I'm integrated, but I'm also a big believer of kind of cutting through the bullshit and not just sitting there shaking my head yes to someone for the hour.
Joe Eiben:
I'm a big believer of we heal in relationship, we heal in exposure, we heal in the doing. I mean, at the end of the day, Kylie, I could watch one of your fitness videos every single day for five years but what would heal me is when I get up and I actually feel it in my body. That's how I think psychologically as well. We can talk through our stories, but until we actually move beyond that and really start to see there's a story... Because we can see our stories, I feel the stories become part of our DNA and we start to believe it as truth. I'm a big believer of the story's real, the story's yours. How true is it?
Kylie:
Yeah. Everything is subjective.
Joe Eiben:
Absolutely. I think that when it comes to what we're experiencing now with the quarantine and the stay at home, everybody is in a struggle differently. What I mean by that is some parents are trying to homeschool their children and it's evoking all of their shame and incompetence. I'm talking to brilliant, amazing people every day judging themselves that they're failing their child because they don't know how to homeschool, and I'm working with people that are feeling embarrassed that they're sticking a frozen pizza in front of their kid because at the end of the day they're exhausted. Again, it's like this experience of all of us either stay at home or a business being closed or having to do things differently is, I think, highlighting and illuminating all of those kind of cobwebs to our psyche and cobwebs to our soul that we were masterful at distracting from, you know?
Kylie:
Yeah. It's so funny. I made a post yesterday about this being a test and a mutual friend of ours actually chimed in and she said, "Well, do you ever feel like you're failing the test?" I said, "Honestly? My teacher's really easy. My teacher is me." I have the bar set so low, and I'm not saying I've got it all figured out at all but I will say if someone's on their iPad for eight hours... I mean, they're on that iPad for eight hours. Sue me, you know?
Kylie:
But that's where we're at right now.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. Well, the thing is too is we are... The way that I like to look at it is having real conversations and telling the truth, the one that we don't want to tell. We are essentially experiencing trauma and crisis right now because collectively we are. I find that those of us that struggle with perfectionism, those of us that struggle with body image issues will be targeting our heart. What I mean by that is we'll beat ourselves up and we'll use the quarantine or the weight gain or anything as a way to say, "I'm not enough. Here's my proof." We're in a global crisis and beautiful, amazing people will use that as an opportunity to be like, "I'm not enough. I'm overwhelmed. Let me prove to you how bad I am." Just again, I feel like it's going to come out in my work and your work, you're going to see it tenfold.
Kylie:
Oh, yeah. This is so interesting. The main reason that I wanted to speak with Joe today, and I've wanted to talk to him for over a year now, is to talk about body dysmorphia. I'll explain how I understand it, but then of course he has a better explanation or description of it.
Joe Eiben:
Well, it might be different but I think you will have a good one too.
Kylie:
Yeah, thank you. I have this theory that none of us truly know what we look like when we look at ourselves in the mirror and when we look at ourselves in pictures because, in my own personal experience and with my clients' experience, and I just want to explore... We don't know what we look like, so if we're being super hard on ourselves and you actually look fantastic, you're not seeing that. How can you describe it or explain it from your perspective?
Joe Eiben:
Well, I would say from a psychological perspective when it comes to body dysmorphia, it is an obsession or distraction from what's going on internally and so we start to focus it externally, whether it be, let's say... We can look in the broader sense of someone that just is obsessed with calling themselves fat over and over and that's stopping them from maybe showing up in the world in a way that feels good to them, or someone is obsessed with their nose being too big and they must get a nose job or things like that. It's really more of a invasive thought process that takes up a lot of rent in our mind. What I believe especially when it comes to body dysmorphia is that's more of the clinical term. I would say that years we used self-conscious or body image issue, but really when we're looking at the dysmorphia what we are starting to see psychologically is those of us that experience anxiety, underlying depression, traumas, body dysmorphia comes in as a powerful distracter because if you experience trauma in your life and you bury it...
Joe Eiben:
The body and the soul are going to be begging for you on some level to work with it, but the ego in the mind is going to come and say, "You know what? You'll deal with that later as soon as you get this 5 lbs off. You will deal with that... You know what's really upsetting you right now? It's your cheeks look full in the mirror." That's really I think, from a psychological perspective when I work with dysmorphia and body image, two pieces. I help people see that it's a distraction and I also get really real around how I go there as well. This pandemic has shown me that because I'm doing everything on video, I'm noticing that looking at my image on video all the time, I start to be more critical or I start to look at like, "Oh, my receding hairline or I'm getting thin on top or, oh, I didn't realize I had as many wrinkles around my eyes as I thought." That part I think it forces us to be human and recognize that we struggle with that, but deeper than that is recognizing that body dysmorphia is a powerful distraction from not feeling what we want to feel. It could be boredom, Kylie. It could be boredom, you know?
Kylie:
Yeah. I mean, it's so powerful because it makes you examine, "What am I not willing to feel right now?"
Kylie:
From my experience too, we see it on both ends of the spectrum. You've mentioned the nose and things of that nature, but I have some male friends who used to be thin and now they're very muscular and they don't see themselves as big and muscular as they are, whereas some others of us don't see ourselves as thin as we are so it works both ways.
Joe Eiben:
100%. Well, because it's about the image so it's about a willingness to be able to let go of the identity that we are connected to. I'll share personally, I was a very chubby kid and I struggled deeply with my weight as an adolescent and probably into my early twenties. Letting go of the identity of a fat kid has been a lifelong journey. I mean, Kylie, I would look in the mirror in a fitness class and see myself fairly strong in a tank top killing it. That voice in the back of my head is like, "You're still a fat-ass." I would recognize the voice, and I think that the difference between being in the throes of the pain versus being in the healing role is that you recognize the voice as a old voice, an old identity so when it comes up again and I... Even during this quarantine piece I'm definitely not as active as I'm used to, I'm definitely eating more, especially I find myself...
Joe Eiben:
When I'm in my office seeing clients I don't snack throughout the afternoon. When I'm at home on Zoom, after every call I'm like, "Let me see if there's a snack or something to eat." Recognizing that yes my body might have some change right now, yes I'm not feeling... I'm a little nervous that when I put on real clothes something will happen, but it's recognizing too that the identification, the over obsession with identifying with our body, the recognition that the healing is not always changing the outside. When we change the inside, the outside follows but we always, I think, in our culture try to do it differently. We always try to change the outside first before we are willing to accept and be loving to the inside. I cannot tell you how many people say to me, "I will feel good when... I'll feel good as soon as I lose 20 lbs. I'll feel good as soon as I start my cardio routine. I'll feel good as soon as I never eat sugar."
Joe Eiben:
What I always say is, "Possibly, but what you're telling yourself unconsciously is, 'I'm not okay now. I'm not good now. It's not okay. I'm not okay.'" When we recognize that that unconscious message is one that keeps us down you know because then we'll never do it. If you think about it... I see this all the time with folks when it comes to body dysmorphia, someone will come into my office, they'll sit down and they're just like, "I'm really struggling with body image right now." I just am like, "I understand. Okay. Let's talk about it." Someone will say something like, "I just feel so heavy and I'm noticing that I feel bloated." "Okay. What else?" Then they want to keep going into the body issue like, "Oh, just my butt or..." "No. What else? What else? What else?" Then we finally get to it, there's something uncomfortable. It's like, "You know what? I'm scared because I'm struggling with my work right now and, I don't know, my boss is really upsetting me. Or I'm fighting with my husband and I don't know what to do." That typically is what I hear, but that's profoundly vulnerable and our mind and our ego want to protect against that so will go into a dysmorphic thought.
Kylie:
Wow. How do we get out of this? I mean, I don't suppose that there's a cure, but what's the work that we can do?
Joe Eiben:
Yeah.. I love that question because it's really... The answer is profoundly simple and the execution is a lifelong journey. That is what is so difficult about this process because really healing our relationship to our body and working with body dysmorphia and working with maybe some body dysmorphic thoughts require us to ask ourselves, "What else?" When my clients will say to me, "I feel fat today." I say, "I understand your mind is struggling but fat's not a feeling. What are you feeling?"
Kylie:
Fat's not a feeling.
Joe Eiben:
Fat is not a feeling, bloated is not a feeling, too big is not a feeling. Upset or upset at the size of your thighs, that's not a feeling. It's a thought in the mind. Real. It's a thought in the mind. We go underneath, what's the feeling? Oftentimes the feeling is, "I'm grieving. I'm scared." Especially now in the middle of what we're experiencing, I think a lot of people are terrified but guess what's easy to focus on. "Oh my God, I'm getting huge. Oh, I'm so unmotivated to workout. Oh my God." Possibly. That's probably true. Okay. What else?
Kylie:
That's brilliant. I love that you brought up the fact that it's a lifelong journey. When I was mid twenties, early twenties, I had an office job. I worked in an advertising agency and we had this great receptionist. Her name was Sierra. Sierra was in her sixties and she sold Mary Kay she was so concerned and... I mean, yes I was in Texas at the time and I feel like people do get dolled up a little bit more there, but-
Kylie:
Yeah, but she was very concerned with her appearance and would still be talking about going on diets at 60 years old. There I am at 20 in the depth of my body dysmorphia and exercise bulimia or whatever and I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Am I going to be worried about this when I'm 60 years old?" I was like, "Oh my God. Is this what I'm destined for?"
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. Well, the thing is too is it's like recognizing too that if we look at it from a perspective of it's a psychological struggle but not shaming someone and thinking that they are crazy or being aggressive about the emotional impact, it's a psychological struggle because it all starts in the mind. The mind begins to say, "This is not okay or this okay," and then we create the story around it. Think about it, Kylie. Just maybe 20 years ago the idea of having a huge ass was considered like, "Oh my God. We don't want that." Now apparently that's "the style" and people are... It's just recognizing it's a thought, it's a cultural message. We believe all of these ideas and we associate certain body parts must be bigger, must be smaller. With men, with the idea of penis size, that is the thing that we're going to be obsessed about. With women it could be boobs, it could be butt, it could be no wrinkles on the face. It's just we have bought into all these messages and instead of recognizing that we bought a ticket to the circus and we're not sure if we want to stay, we feel like we need to live there.
Kylie:
Yes. I mean, and I agree with you because I'd be lying if I said that I didn't struggle with any of this, right?
Joe Eiben:
Me too.
Kylie:
I think that's why we're able to do the work that we do, is because we've been there and we understand it. I will be an open book and say... I probably am a little bit too obsessed with the way that I look, right?
Kylie:
Show me someone in the fitness industry that's not. Not that it's normal.
Joe Eiben:
Yes, exactly. Right. Well, it's like that willingness. The best part is, is it's kind of like... I would say my favorite is like, "Oh, I'm not obsessed. I just believe in health at every size and we all love each other and everything's great." I'm like, "But you're the epitome of what people want to look like in our culture. Just acknowledge that, right?"
Kylie:
Right. I mean, let's be clear.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. The thing is, is what I tell my clients all the time is this. "Hey, you want a therapist that's a little more fucked up than you because then I could really help you, okay?" And I am. I also recognize you also... When a client looks at me and says, "I just know that I'm not fat but I feel like that and I'm struggling," you don't want someone to look at you and say, "Oh, I have no idea what's that like." I will literally look at someone and say, "I feel you 100%. We're all in this together on some level." It's a willingness to be able to feel what we do not want to feel. This is the part that's the most powerful, Kylie, I think out of anything.
Joe Eiben:
I really mean this, and I'm a dramatic so when I say this just bear with me. When we really recognize the essence that it is so much easier for us to believe a lie than to believe that we were lied to because people will stay in this identification of who they think they are or what they think they look like or what their worth is based on a lie oftentimes. We see it on a macro level. We see people that will, let's say, for example, will deny climate science. We go, "Oh my God. How could someone deny it? That doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to fight about it forever but that's weird that someone would believe that it's not a thing, right?"
Joe Eiben:
Then I look at beautiful, amazing people that will list off their flaws to me. I'm like, "God, I just don't see that." The fact that that's your belief and recognizing that I feel... For me personally what has been the most healing journey of my life has been moving my body, eating well, taking good care of myself, loving myself through the process has been degrading but the true essence of the healing and recognizing that the way that I choose to see myself will impact my life, the stories I believe about myself will impact my life because for years, Kylie, I went to the gym and the entire mantra in my head was like, "Burn off what you ate, you're fat, get it together." The mantra that I have today, and my exercise is way more intense typically, is, "This is so amazing that your body will do this. You are strong, you are healing your body." It has transformed the way that I see it. Now, is it perfect? Absolutely not because at eight o'clock in the morning I can get a glance of myself in the mirror and be like, "Not bad." 8:30 I'm like, "Not so great right now." That's the human part of us. I would be lying through my teeth to tell you I don't have a critical part in my mind that wants to be like, "Hey, let's assess your flaws right now."
Kylie:
Totally. Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. I just want to say that one more time to make sure I got it right. The way I choose to see myself will impact my life.
Joe Eiben:
It will dictate.
Kylie:
Dictate.
Joe Eiben:
And impact. You got it right with me saying it but it will dictate it, it will impact it, it will absolutely, absolutely be our experience in life.
Kylie:
Yeah, because it will influence all the decisions that you make.
Joe Eiben:
The way that we choose to view ourselves, we will see that and we will feel that through every aspect of our life. If someone does forget to call me back, if I'm choosing to see myself as a victim or see myself as unworthy it's because they don't love me. If I'm empowered, I will know that they're probably busy. If someone smiles at me in a store, it will be because they're friendly. If I'm feeling bad about myself, it's because they're noticing body and they're smirking at it. Just think about the reality of how we see ourselves, we will interpret it with every action. It's kind of like... I think the thing that's so interesting too, Kylie, is that because our world, like it or not, is deeply influenced by social media... It just is. It's the change and we can pretend that it's not there but it is. The way that we interpret and the way that we see our world through the lens of social media... Think about it.
Joe Eiben:
In any moment we can filter, curate and edit what we're not comfortable with. I get it, but what that does unconsciously to people... I work with amazing teen girls all the time that will say to me, "I know that it's filtered, but it still bothers me and I want to look like that. I know that it's fake but I still want to look like that." I'm like, "Exactly." That's the thing that we have to recognize from a cultural standpoint, that we see the struggle going up even a little bit more and even more insidious is because back in the way when you and I were younger we knew that essentially magazines by professional models, we knew that that was either triggering or people used it as a way to compare themself but on some level we didn't know those people and it was still a little bit removed. Now with social media, people that we know are altering their appearance or filtering or curating or editing.
Joe Eiben:
It messes with our unconscious mind because it's like we keep getting the message of like, "Oh, I need to look perfect or that's a bad angle so I'm going to delete it or, oh, I don't like the way my skin color looks that day or the angle or the lighting so let me filter that." I'm not saying that intrinsically there's anything right or wrong with this behavior, I'm not at all judging it. What I'm saying is, is that on our unconscious mind it does a number to us because then we start comparing. It's human nature, and especially... I think you are an exception to this because I find that you are ethical and that you bring a lot of important conversations to the table and that you're motivating and not shaming, but so much fitness and nutrition online is very unconsciously shaming and so then that creates more of like, "Okay. I'll be perfect if I do it this way." You know?
Kylie:
It does. Hard road to toe, or however they say that. It's very tricky.
Kylie:
To be honest, sometimes I have this internal conversation all the time, "Am I perpetuating the problem?" It's a struggle. I've talked about it. I don't know if you know my friend Grace Rockwell, she's an intuitive eating coach.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah, I went to Costa Rica with Grace.
Kylie:
Yeah. It's so crazy because you know my thing is macros, but not macros for life, macros for awareness and she's intuitive eating and I'm like, "Oh God." There's so much. It just...
Joe Eiben:
Well, the thing about it... This is the thing that I would say I deeply am... Give me a moment for a second. I am not in the mix of a lot of traditional professionals that treat eating disorders, the reason being, I would say hands down the standard is intuitive eating. Some of my good friends that are nutritionists live and die by intuitive eating. I would say for me personally, when you're a person that struggles with portion control, when you're a person that struggles with addictive eating with sugar, it's not to say that macro counting is good or bad because everybody has an opinion around that, but what I do know is that when you're asking someone that has some addictive behaviors with food to be an intuitive eater it's like telling an alcoholic to be an intuitive drinker. That's the way I work.
Joe Eiben:
Now, many people, Kylie, that might be listening to this right now will deeply disagree with what I'm saying and I respect that fully, but what I know to be true for me is that understanding what my body needs, understanding how my body processes things and being willing to avoid foods that cause a problem for me has been profoundly healing. I think that for some people that could not work, that is not helpful, but what I believe personally is that there's a difference between letting go of diet culture and diet mentality and obsession versus knowing that for me every time I've tried to intuitively eat... It's problematic, that's all I'm going to say.
Joe Eiben:
For me, I think it's like with intuitive eating that is a... I'd say that it can be a goal for some people and that can be profoundly helpful and healing to them, but I'm a believer that I don't label people as food addicts or as over-eaters but I do believe that some food is designed to actually perpetuate and create addictive behavior with food. Really, I feel that honors the person more so for me when clients will tell, "I'm just such a disaster, I can't stop eating this, I'm so weak." I will say, "No, you're actually not but that food is kind of designed for you to act obsessional around it." Because when they've got seven different kinds of sugar in there labeled differently, they want you to binge on it. When they've got tons of chemicals in there that in other countries are banned, that's going to create a problem in your system. For me what I like to do when it comes to intuitive eating, if it really is helpful for someone I support it fully, but oftentimes what I find is people will think that they are the problem and the food is okay. I'm a believer that we are okay, some food is the problem.
Kylie:
Yes. I recently read a book about this. Gosh, it'll come to me in just a moment, but the same thing with, speaking of social media, Instagram. It was designed to be addictive. Candy Crush the game is designed to be addictive. Again, it's not you, it's the thing.
Joe Eiben:
Right. The thing is, is think about, too, shame that we put on ourselves when we get pulled in to those addictive behaviors that are designed to do it. Don't tell me that the manufacturer of potato chips wants us to have a small handful and make sure that the bag lasts us for about a week and a half.
Joe Eiben:
They want that bag gone and you being at the store being like, "Oh my God, there's a new flavor. Let's get that too." The thing is, is I feel really from a healing perspective when we recognize that we are not the problem and that we're okay intrinsically and really working with those messages, working with eating in a way that's more loving... I tell my clients all the time, "I know that you love that food, but I try to eat food that loves me back. I'm not judging if you want to have 'blank' for breakfast, you're not committing a crime. How do you feel?" Or when it comes to intuitive eating, helping people see when you're overeating or when you're undereating, what are you not wanting to feel? That's it. What do you not want to feel? I even think with the idea of counting macros or doing intuitive eating or following any kind of plan, is it perpetuating shame? Is it helping you heal? Is it helping us understand ourselves better? But it's kind of like politics, Kylie. People will fight tooth and nail with their view and recognizing every person's a little bit different. Go ahead.
Kylie:
No, I was just going to say I think that's really powerful. You said a second ago, "This is what I know to be true for me." What's right for Joe may not be right for me, which may not be right for Erica, etc.
Joe Eiben:
Right. Absolutely. The thing is too is I think also recognizing that we as people have different seasons in our life. For me, I'm not going to be at my fighting weight all the time. I'm not. For me, I'm going to sometimes definitely gravitate towards comfort foods more. For me, I'm going to really train hard and track it and keep track of how many hours I'm doing and really be into it. Other times I'll maybe give my body a rest. It's a willingness too that I think we get so caught up with the identification that we get scared. It's like even when it comes to weight, during this lockdown period or stay at home, quarantine, whatever we call it, depends on the day... Yeah.
Kylie:
Right.
Joe Eiben:
The idea that our body might change, it may. Can we say, "Okay. It may." That doesn't have to become your current obsession, but what I see for people it is the current obsession because the reality is our world will look different when it starts to open back up again. It just will. It's already changed so drastically. Our psyche hasn't even been able to metabolize that in the course of two months everything we know is different. We have not been able to catch up to that so the low hanging fruit, body image and body dysmorphia.
Kylie:
Oh, it's so easy to grab onto. It's right there.
Kylie:
It's always there.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. "Well, I'm not going to worry about will my business be okay, but the size of my thighs really are the main concern right now." Like, "Will my children be able to go back to school in the fall? That's not really a concern, but I definitely know that I'm a little bit thicker than I was a few weeks ago."
Kylie:
Oh my gosh. It's so true. How does someone know when it's time to work with a therapist on these issues? Because, I mean, I think everybody should be going to therapy. I believe-
Joe Eiben:
I agree.
Kylie:
I mean, I preach it, but I also have worked with clients in the past and I'm like, "This is out of my scope."
Kylie:
How does someone know when it's time? Like, they don't need a nutrition coach, they need a therapist for this.
Joe Eiben:
I mean, I would... It's interesting, Kylie. It's a great question because here in Seattle a few coaches that I know have actually referred their clients to me to do therapy because they were initially doing nutrition coaching, maybe setting them up with a macro plan, things like that and then what they realized throughout the course working together, they're like, "You actually need to talk about these issues with a counselor." I would say this, the part that's tough is that it's tricky because oftentimes when you start to... Let's say, for example, someone starts to work with you and you start to train them, you start to work with them on nutrition. Those issues start popping up and then it's an opportunity to be able to say, "Oh, actually, you know what? I'm noticing that some trauma's coming up. I'm noticing there's some anxiety and depression." Because that's a piece too.
Joe Eiben:
Oftentimes with our obsessions, that keeps our anxiety almost at bay if that makes sense because that's the focus. Once we remove that, then all of a sudden it's like all the emotions and feelings are up. I would say to ask ourselves honestly, "What's the percentage of the day that I'm focused on my body, what I ate, what I'm about to eat or something fitness related? What's the thought percentage in my mind?" If it's really high I would say it's an invitation to speak to a professional around what's going on, and really helping people see... I'm very conscious of this, Kylie. I'm very anti-pathology. I mean, I went to a Buddhist college, that's where I was trained and so it's who I am as a human.
Joe Eiben:
But I'm really anti-pathology and helping people see like, "Yeah, okay. You've got some body image stuff. You feel really dysmorphic right now. Okay. Let's pause. What is going on? What's happening for you? Just tell me what's happening. What are feeling? What's going on in your life? Tell me about when you were little. What was your relationship like with food when you were younger? What's your parents' relationship like with food? What's their body image relationship like?" The fruit doesn't fall far is what I like to say, and what I tell my clients all the time, a dirty little secret. The first few sessions of therapy I don't always tell people, "We probably need to talk about your childhood, your parents, your relationship with that because it helps inform how we are as adults." Also recognizing that if the majority of our thoughts are something that is related to food, body, et cetera, maybe just getting curious, if we didn't have those thoughts what would we think about?
Kylie:
Whoa.
Joe Eiben:
I say to my clients all the time I actually... You know the way that I am. I'm dramatic. I'll stand up and take a pen and wave it over their head. I go, "Magic wand. No more body image distortion, no more dysmorphic thoughts. All right, done. Tell me what else is in your mind." People literally are like... I'm like, "Exactly. That is a powerful distraction."
Kylie:
Yeah, because I actually wrote down a second ago was earlier you said taking up space in your brain or paying rent in your brain.
Kylie:
That's huge.
Joe Eiben:
Well, one thing I say about body image too, and I would say that it's a day to day struggle for me still, there's moments where it's still there for sure. I would be lying through my life if I told you it was over, but what I can say is this: in terms of bad body image, body dysmorphia, occasionally I get an Airbnb there but I'm not buying a fucking condo.
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. Occasionally I get an Airbnb and I'm like, "Oh, all right. I'm glad you did not sign a lease and I'm glad you didn't buy it. All right. I did not purchase real estate in that area, but I definitely..." That's a piece, is a little bit of levity too, recognizing we're all human, we have crazy thoughts. I am not at all beyond someone, I just have been willing to be a little more vulnerable, a little more honest and recognize we all struggle with something. I was not the person in school to be like, "I have to be valedictorian or I have to get a higher score on my SATs," but I've definitely been like, "All right. I need to be a little bit faster than that person in the spin class next to me."
Kylie:
Or the guy on the treadmill.
Joe Eiben:
Right, or I'll be like, "Well, she's 65 and doing the jump ropes. Let me do that." Yeah, that willingness, I think, to really recognize that if we can release this idea of pathology and beating ourselves up and feeling shameful that we're struggling, when we really have honest hard conversations we're all in the same boat to different degrees.
Joe Eiben:
To a different degree. I mean, have you ever chatted with someone where they've said, "I have zero body image concerns. I'm A-OK. I've never."
Kylie:
Yeah, no, and if they told me that I would call them a liar.
Joe Eiben:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Just recognizing too that healing does not look like the issue's gone, healing does not look like we're not dysmorphic anymore, that we don't have body image issues. Healing is knowing it's a part and knowing it's a voice. It's typically the voice of criticism, and here's the deeper piece. It's typically the voice in our unconscious that's connected to our ego that's helping us distract from real pain.
Kylie:
This is why you have got to go to therapy.
Kylie:
Right? You have to know what it really is. That is the work. I don't want to make this show about me at all, but I will tell you guys...
Joe Eiben:
It is about you. I love that.
Kylie:
But since I'm here...
Joe Eiben:
Yeah, kind of like Oprah's on her fucking magazine program. I also want to apologize, I know I've sworn too much. I'm sure that people listening to you are like, "Who is this foulmouthed therapist?" I apologize.
Kylie:
No, they need to know. They need to know the real us. I recognized the fact that I spent a lot of time on my outward appearance and I was like, "You need to look inward, and beyond yoga and things like that." I was like, "No. You're spending a lot of time focused on the outside. Let's focus on the inside." If anyone's... There was not one issue that I wanted to work out, I just knew it was time to look in, you know?
Joe Eiben:
Right, exactly. That's the thing, Kylie, I'm so glad you brought it up because I think people go, "Well, I don't really have any issues. Everything's fine. I don't know what's going," versus recognizing that the dysmorphia, the body image and the obsession are red flag for something going on. That's all. If I start getting really hyper focused where I want to start weighing myself or I'm starting to get weird with food, that is telling me, "Uh-oh, red flag. What's going on?" "Oh, I just bought a house. I'm a little bit scared right now financially." "Okay. That's what's going on." Instead of me going, "Let me go weigh myself to see if I put any weight on."
Joe Eiben:
Or if I want to start getting hyper focused around like, "All right. I think I've got to pull down the macros for carbs. I got to go lower. All right." Then I'm like, "Oh, actually, I'm a little bit overwhelmed because I don't know when anything's going to reopen again and will my friends with restaurants have business?" A willingness to recognize there's stuff going on. We feel what we feel, and giving ourselves that permission to say, "Yes, this is true for me right now. This is what I feel." To go deeper. It's not always just about the body. It's just part of it. The body is the outward reflection. I'm not some Buddha that's going to say it doesn't matter, but it's just about putting it into perspective. On our deathbed no one's going to be like, "God damn her abs were tight."
Joe Eiben:
They're not, but I know our ego looks in the mirror and says, "All right. I'm into this." Can we hold space for both?
Kylie:
Before we wrap up, I want to say one more thing. I mean, this podcast is such full of great nuggets. Don't feel shameful that you're struggling and bring that back to what we're all dealing with right now. This is something that I've seen. We've already briefly talked about it, but it's okay. It's okay that you don't know how to manage it all.
Joe Eiben:
Not only is it okay, it's the reality is human. I don't know about you, but I've never gone through a global pandemic before and the same thing when I work with parents. They beat themselves up because they don't know. I'm like, "Well, you've never been a mom to an eight year old before. How the hell are you supposed to know? Or you've never moved across the country with your family before because your partner got a new job. That's new. Or you've never woken up and been like, 'I can't go and do all the things that I normally did.'" We are so much more the same but the mind wants to divide us and be like, "Okay. Let's divide into categories because that's going to help make us safe." Because we learned when we were young... We learned to divide. Are you a boy or a girl? Are you Jewish? Are you Catholic? Do you go to this school, do you go to that school? Do you want this team or that team? Our brains are so indoctrinated at so young to compare so as we do this as adults and we start to compare bodies, think about the damage that that does.
Joe Eiben:
It's so indoctrinated. My work with clients all the time is like, "I'm going to help you unlearn so much bullshit that you've learned throughout your life."
Kylie:
It's no one's fault that you learned that stuff, right?
Joe Eiben:
Right. We all learned it. We have all learned it. Yeah.
Joe Eiben:
Let me share one quick story with you before we go. I don't know, I'm terrible with time so you have to cut me off. In terms of body image and how powerful distraction is... Two years ago, my brother died. At my brother's wake service I was standing next to my mom. My mom lifelong dieter, lifelong body obsession, lifelong up and down and I would say her body image distortion dysmorphia is so powerful that I also absorbed that into my DNA a little bit. God bless her, I love her, good human, but the body image distortion is unreal. At her son's funeral service I said to her, "Mom, you look so beautiful." She looks at me and she goes, "I look fat."
Joe Eiben:
I looked at her and said, "Or you are devastated that you're burying your son today. That's what it is. It's not, 'I'm fat.' It's not, 'My size is too big.'" In that moment, I looked at her and said, "No. You're devastated that you're buying your son today," because that was the pain. The pain was not that she felt fat in her black outfit.
Joe Eiben:
I share that because that's kind of an extreme or at least really in your face example, but think about what we do on a day to day basis because we just don't want to feel something difficult. We feel defeated or we feel shameful or we feel not good enough or we're not sure if we're doing it right. The mind right away is like, "Well, let's maybe focus on... This is a little easier to handle. Let's focus on your size for a little bit, or your appearance."
Kylie:
Well, since you went there, I mean, I observed my mom's stuff all through growing up and I don't think I realized how much of an impact it had on me until I was in my twenties and realized it. But it's the same thing, and I know that was passed down to me.
Joe Eiben:
Absolutely. It was passed down trauma. That is ancestral trauma. It just is. And think about it, Kylie, we as humans look at our caregivers and look at our parents as people to show us how to do our life, good or bad. We might not want to acknowledge that but we do, so when the message is all about, "I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable unless I look this way." On a regular basis I would say to my mom, "When you die, I want to have some photographs of you but you've destroyed them all because you don't like the way you look." I'm not going to look back and say, "Oh, my mom was a size 18 in this picture." I want to have some memories, but that's what body image distortion and body dysmorphia do is that we won't show up for life when we're in the trenches of it.
Kylie:
So crazy because I want to do a blog or something about this. I missed out on what should've been the most fun part of my life.
Joe Eiben:
I joke all the time that at 45 I'm so much more confident than I was at 25, but God I wish I loved myself a little bit in my twenties. I spent that decade and decade prior hating myself, hating who I was, feeling unbelievably insecure and I say it with affection and a little bit of levity, but I wish I would've loved myself in my twenties. I probably would've had so much more fun.
Kylie:
Exactly. I think that's one of the reasons I have this young spirit is because I wasn't young when I should've been.
Joe Eiben:
Right. Same. Yeah, and the thing is too is it's like... I believe too, and I've witnessed it, you know that when there's more love on the inside for the self it radiates out. I think that that's a piece that we often have to remember too, that our healing is not being on the treadmill but the treadmill, the weights, the scale support us in living the best way that we can. It's all about intention. If you have weights in your hand and you're reminding yourself that you're strong and capable and taking care of yourself, it's a game changer. If you have weights in your hand and you're shaming yourself the whole time, that's going to be a temporary fix, it's going to reinforce more shame and you're going to get back on the merry-go-round again.
Kylie:
Oh my God. I could literally talk to you all day.
Joe Eiben:
I know, I know. Me too.
Kylie:
Are you taking on new clients or are you super packed?
Joe Eiben:
I am packed but I always will take on a few people because people rotate in and out of our work together. Some people are finished, some people take breaks, I have a little more time to someone else. I'm really grateful that I have a very full practice but I always will chat with someone and see if I can get them in or see if we can make something work. Yeah.
Kylie:
Yeah. You're welcome. I'll let people know how to get a hold of you in the podcast.
Joe Eiben:
Absolutely. Sure. The best way would be either you can get... You can go on my website, it's www.joeeiben.com, or message me through Instagram. Yeah. What is my Instagram handle? @Joeeibentherapy.
Joe Eiben:
Sometimes the DMs too that I get from people, it's kind of like... It's always a similar experience. It's like, "Thank you for what you shared. I thought I was the only one." That to me is the most powerful thing. It's like the thing is, is I believe that Brené Brown said this years ago when I heard her speak. She said, "The most powerful thing we can say to anyone is me too."
Joe Eiben:
Because I can't tell you how many times clients walk in my office bearing so much shame that they overate granola the night before or they have an event coming up and they binged. I know for me I overate the night before my photo shoot for my website. I was just like, "What am I doing?" I was like, "Of course I overate the night before they're taking pictures to put on my website." It's like, "Me too. I get it." We're complicated humans, you know?
Joe Eiben:
Absolutely. I think that moving forward, Kylie, maybe you and I in the future can talk again about the saboteur inside of our psyche, recognizing how that plays a role because the saboteur is really a brilliant, sophisticated part of our ego that's trying to protect us but it will absolutely ruin it. The saboteur is basically the teenager that sets your home on fire because you were complaining that it was dirty. You know?
Joe Eiben:
It's like recognizing that, yeah. That's another thing maybe in the future we can chat about.
Kylie:
Oh, yeah. Side note, another mutual friend of ours... I don't want to say her name because I don't want people to know about this, but we were having a session together. I was like, "Tell me about your hobbies." "Kylie, self sabotage is my hobby."
Joe Eiben:
Yeah. Well, for all of us.
Joe Eiben:
We all have the saboteur, we just do. It's part of our psyche. We have the saboteur, we have the wounded child, we have the prostitute, we have the victim. These are parts of our psyche, they're parts of the construct that makes us a human being. The power is is when we understand when they're running the show. If my saboteur is running the show, I need to have a boundary quick because I could either eat like a very intuitive man or I could eat like an unsupervised teenager.